True love? More like unhealthy obsession. Can we stop treating this guy like he was a knight in shining armour? Dude bullied his students to the point where one of them (Neville Longbottom) has his bogart turn into him. On top of that, he was a murderer, most likely a mass murderer. He didn't do what he did for Harry out of "love." He did it because of this obsession with Lily and, if you remember correctly, didn't give a shit about Harry or James when Voldemort targeted the Potters. He just wanted Lily. And Dumbledore called him out on this. It was only then that he, reluctantly, agreed to protect James and Harry. I won't go as far as to say he is badly written, like another commenter, but he is not supposed to be a good person. Perhaps he could have been, but he chose to go down the dark path. Sure, he kind of redeems himself, but that doesn't justify his behaviour. If he really wanted to redeem himself, he wouldn't have bullied fucking children! All this crap with him and Lily? Stop it. James was a better fit with her for a reason and it's not just because Snape that one time called her a Mudblood. James straightened out. Snape didn't and he chose to be resentful and to seek vengeance on the world until it affected him. Guy's a selfish jerk, let's stop pretending he's the real hero. He ain't
You’re right, nothing can justify his behavior. He very much was a bully (mostly because he was bullied). I don’t think I can agree with you about love vs obsession here though.
There’s a fine line between obsession and love but I think obsession would have had him far more possessive toward her. Instead, he let her be. Even when she got involved with his rival. He didn’t try and stop them. He let her go, something a more obsessive person would have a very tough time doing.
He’s no knight in shining armor and I don’t say all this to agree with his behavior. But I can understand why he made the choices he did.
And he put himself at great risk for Dumbledore more than once. He carried his pain and his hatred for a long time. And that certainly led him to make some terrible choices. But Dumbledore had faith in him, trusted him to do the right thing. More than he did himself. And obviously that mattered to both.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. Been busy.
No, it's obsession. To be completely fair, the movie's don't go into the details of it and make him look like a better character than he is, so from that perspective he doesn't come across that way. However, as always, I go to the books and the source material to learn who the character is truly intended to be. And in this case, yeah, Snape is possessive and creepy as hell. The only reason I he "let's her be" is because she cuts of all ties with him and even then he tries to get back in her good books. By the time we meet him in the main story, he is thirty years old. I am thirty. Right now. And I can't even remember the name of my teenage crush (that could say more about me though, so you know, do with that what you will). And it's a far cry to say he "let her go." He begs Voldemort to spare her and Dumbledore to protect her without a thought for James or Harry in the hopes that, without them, she'll turn back to him. And even after she's dead, he rips up photos of her and her family, keeping the portion with her on it, as well as her signature. At the age of thirty-seven! Far from healthy. If he really was as good a guy as everyone wants him to be, he would have let her go properly and straightened himself out. Now I get it, he was a teenager and as teenagers, we all do dumb shit that we regret. But he can't even do that as a thirty year old man. I don't care what his background is, he is the master of his own choices and he made some horrific ones.
As far as putting himself at risk - absolutely he did. There's no denying the courage he shows throughout the main story and that is something to be admired. However, it comes out of a place of vengeance against Voldemort rather than for the betterment of the world. It's a personal vendetta and it is that which Dumbledore relies on and why he knows he can trust Snape. That's not to take anything away from the courage he shows. But it doesn't come from a selfless place.
I don't think we're going to agree on this - which is fine - but those are my thoughts on the matter. As far as I'm concerned, Snape is a terrible person with a few redeeming qualities. He could have been a better man - but he chose not to be.
No worries at all, my friend. I understand busy life all too well.
We may not agree on this and that’s fine. I always appreciate the thoughtful and honest responses. That’s something sorely lacking from many conversations these days.
I agree I think his behavior definitely borders on obsession. And it does come from a very selfish place, there’s no doubt about that. I don’t know if I’d say that makes him good or bad. He’s certainly made some pretty awful choices in his life and no amount of excuses or past experiences makes any of that right. And I definitely agree with you that he felt a great amount of anger and hatred towards Voldemort for what he did. Still, his actions weren’t ones made out of vengeance. At least, not entirely. Vengeance isn’t typically that patient. Regardless of where it came from, however, he still did the right thing. Yes, I know he did it for selfish reasons but the fact that he made the right choice accounts for something. And I trust Dumbledore’s judgment. He saw that Snape had good in him. No one who truly lived on Voldemort’s side of things would feel what Snape felt toward Lily. They couldn’t. But that’s just how I read it.
Crazy to think that two people can disagree on a topic without needing to kill each other over it, eh? I totally agree and I appreciate I can have a chat, disagree, and neither of us take offense. Good to see the world isn't completely fucked.
I think it's absolutely obsessive. And I am confident in my belief that, while he was a Death Eater, James Potter was at the top of his blacklist. Having said that, I am sure that, initially, what he felt for Lily was love. I'm not denying that. Rather, it turned into obsession, which is what happens in most obsession cases, right? Perhaps underneath it all he truly did feel love for Lily and that's what Dumbledore recognized in him, despite being initially disgusted. I standby my take on his motivation being vengeance. You've got to remember, Snape thought Voldemort was dead after the Potters were killed. Sure, Dumbledore told him Voldemort would return, but I suspect, like most, he didn't truly believe it, probably not until Quirrell turned out to be a Death Eater. And that would have been when his thirst for vengeance would have returned.
I do want to make this clear though - Snape was not a coward. He was a brave man, an incredibly brave one in fact. I don't want to take that away from him. I just don't believe that his motivations were entirely for "the cause" so to speak, more so because he had a personal vendetta. And while he chose the right side in the war, that doesn't necessarily make him a good person. Having said that, he is very much a grey character, an "anti-hero" if you will and I do recognize that. My thought process is that he has shown himself to not be a good person. Or rather, someone who has an inability to improve himself. Perhaps that's a better way to put it. He's also an incredibly unhealthy person. Being unable to let go of a grudge from when he was a teenager is a bit excessive. And you are correct in that no one else on Voldemort's side could feel what Snape did, of that I absolutely agree (hence why The Cursed Child is a pile of hot shit, but that's a different topic).
But yes, Dumbledore was ultimately right about Snape, that he would finally make the right decision and stand up to Voldemort. Perhaps not in the way that everyone else was, but on his own personal quest. Partly to bring down Voldemort. But also, I think, to redeem himself. Perhaps from Snape's perspective, he felt like he couldn't die and meet Lily until he had at least proven to himself that he could make the right choice. Well, despite all the bullying of children, not sure how he planned on justifying that one
First he was the ghoulish bully teacher, then the death eater who deep down celebrated his rival's death and Black's downfall then the tragic antihero who loved harry but still bullied him.
Makes no sense. He had more retcons than Batman in 80 years.
This is the problem with all of Rowling's stories; inconsistency.
True love? More like unhealthy obsession. Can we stop treating this guy like he was a knight in shining armour? Dude bullied his students to the point where one of them (Neville Longbottom) has his bogart turn into him. On top of that, he was a murderer, most likely a mass murderer. He didn't do what he did for Harry out of "love." He did it because of this obsession with Lily and, if you remember correctly, didn't give a shit about Harry or James when Voldemort targeted the Potters. He just wanted Lily. And Dumbledore called him out on this. It was only then that he, reluctantly, agreed to protect James and Harry. I won't go as far as to say he is badly written, like another commenter, but he is not supposed to be a good person. Perhaps he could have been, but he chose to go down the dark path. Sure, he kind of redeems himself, but that doesn't justify his behaviour. If he really wanted to redeem himself, he wouldn't have bullied fucking children! All this crap with him and Lily? Stop it. James was a better fit with her for a reason and it's not just because Snape that one time called her a Mudblood. James straightened out. Snape didn't and he chose to be resentful and to seek vengeance on the world until it affected him. Guy's a selfish jerk, let's stop pretending he's the real hero. He ain't
You’re right, nothing can justify his behavior. He very much was a bully (mostly because he was bullied). I don’t think I can agree with you about love vs obsession here though.
There’s a fine line between obsession and love but I think obsession would have had him far more possessive toward her. Instead, he let her be. Even when she got involved with his rival. He didn’t try and stop them. He let her go, something a more obsessive person would have a very tough time doing.
He’s no knight in shining armor and I don’t say all this to agree with his behavior. But I can understand why he made the choices he did.
And he put himself at great risk for Dumbledore more than once. He carried his pain and his hatred for a long time. And that certainly led him to make some terrible choices. But Dumbledore had faith in him, trusted him to do the right thing. More than he did himself. And obviously that mattered to both.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. Been busy.
No, it's obsession. To be completely fair, the movie's don't go into the details of it and make him look like a better character than he is, so from that perspective he doesn't come across that way. However, as always, I go to the books and the source material to learn who the character is truly intended to be. And in this case, yeah, Snape is possessive and creepy as hell. The only reason I he "let's her be" is because she cuts of all ties with him and even then he tries to get back in her good books. By the time we meet him in the main story, he is thirty years old. I am thirty. Right now. And I can't even remember the name of my teenage crush (that could say more about me though, so you know, do with that what you will). And it's a far cry to say he "let her go." He begs Voldemort to spare her and Dumbledore to protect her without a thought for James or Harry in the hopes that, without them, she'll turn back to him. And even after she's dead, he rips up photos of her and her family, keeping the portion with her on it, as well as her signature. At the age of thirty-seven! Far from healthy. If he really was as good a guy as everyone wants him to be, he would have let her go properly and straightened himself out. Now I get it, he was a teenager and as teenagers, we all do dumb shit that we regret. But he can't even do that as a thirty year old man. I don't care what his background is, he is the master of his own choices and he made some horrific ones.
As far as putting himself at risk - absolutely he did. There's no denying the courage he shows throughout the main story and that is something to be admired. However, it comes out of a place of vengeance against Voldemort rather than for the betterment of the world. It's a personal vendetta and it is that which Dumbledore relies on and why he knows he can trust Snape. That's not to take anything away from the courage he shows. But it doesn't come from a selfless place.
I don't think we're going to agree on this - which is fine - but those are my thoughts on the matter. As far as I'm concerned, Snape is a terrible person with a few redeeming qualities. He could have been a better man - but he chose not to be.
No worries at all, my friend. I understand busy life all too well.
We may not agree on this and that’s fine. I always appreciate the thoughtful and honest responses. That’s something sorely lacking from many conversations these days.
I agree I think his behavior definitely borders on obsession. And it does come from a very selfish place, there’s no doubt about that. I don’t know if I’d say that makes him good or bad. He’s certainly made some pretty awful choices in his life and no amount of excuses or past experiences makes any of that right. And I definitely agree with you that he felt a great amount of anger and hatred towards Voldemort for what he did. Still, his actions weren’t ones made out of vengeance. At least, not entirely. Vengeance isn’t typically that patient. Regardless of where it came from, however, he still did the right thing. Yes, I know he did it for selfish reasons but the fact that he made the right choice accounts for something. And I trust Dumbledore’s judgment. He saw that Snape had good in him. No one who truly lived on Voldemort’s side of things would feel what Snape felt toward Lily. They couldn’t. But that’s just how I read it.
Crazy to think that two people can disagree on a topic without needing to kill each other over it, eh? I totally agree and I appreciate I can have a chat, disagree, and neither of us take offense. Good to see the world isn't completely fucked.
I think it's absolutely obsessive. And I am confident in my belief that, while he was a Death Eater, James Potter was at the top of his blacklist. Having said that, I am sure that, initially, what he felt for Lily was love. I'm not denying that. Rather, it turned into obsession, which is what happens in most obsession cases, right? Perhaps underneath it all he truly did feel love for Lily and that's what Dumbledore recognized in him, despite being initially disgusted. I standby my take on his motivation being vengeance. You've got to remember, Snape thought Voldemort was dead after the Potters were killed. Sure, Dumbledore told him Voldemort would return, but I suspect, like most, he didn't truly believe it, probably not until Quirrell turned out to be a Death Eater. And that would have been when his thirst for vengeance would have returned.
I do want to make this clear though - Snape was not a coward. He was a brave man, an incredibly brave one in fact. I don't want to take that away from him. I just don't believe that his motivations were entirely for "the cause" so to speak, more so because he had a personal vendetta. And while he chose the right side in the war, that doesn't necessarily make him a good person. Having said that, he is very much a grey character, an "anti-hero" if you will and I do recognize that. My thought process is that he has shown himself to not be a good person. Or rather, someone who has an inability to improve himself. Perhaps that's a better way to put it. He's also an incredibly unhealthy person. Being unable to let go of a grudge from when he was a teenager is a bit excessive. And you are correct in that no one else on Voldemort's side could feel what Snape did, of that I absolutely agree (hence why The Cursed Child is a pile of hot shit, but that's a different topic).
But yes, Dumbledore was ultimately right about Snape, that he would finally make the right decision and stand up to Voldemort. Perhaps not in the way that everyone else was, but on his own personal quest. Partly to bring down Voldemort. But also, I think, to redeem himself. Perhaps from Snape's perspective, he felt like he couldn't die and meet Lily until he had at least proven to himself that he could make the right choice. Well, despite all the bullying of children, not sure how he planned on justifying that one
My favourite HP character. James Potter was absolutely a swine. 😂
Badly written character.
Why do you say that?
Because I read the books when I was young lol.
First he was the ghoulish bully teacher, then the death eater who deep down celebrated his rival's death and Black's downfall then the tragic antihero who loved harry but still bullied him.
Makes no sense. He had more retcons than Batman in 80 years.
This is the problem with all of Rowling's stories; inconsistency.